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[Ed. note: Discussion of the World Cup has quieted down, but the following two posts from European list members have come in and responses are invited, as always.] From: Erik Tängerstad <erik.tangerstad@hgo.se> Subject: Re: MfG 9: Zimmermann on Germany after the World Cup Date: Monday, July 31, 2006 Although this year's World Cup is now over, there is still one question that has not been addressed, a question that might be of interest when discussing the significance of flag-waving at arenas: Why do the Germans play black-white instead of black-red-golden? And by the way, why do the Italians play azure blue instead of red-white- green? The direct answers to these questions are that black-white are the Prussian colors, while azure blue is the color of the House of Savoy. Monarchical colors. But why do the German and Italian national teams still represent their republics in monarchical colors? Given the harsh tensions between different representations of modern nations throughout the last two centuries, the notion that republican flags are waved in support of monarchical colors could be regarded remarkable. But when the black-white team played the azure blue one, while their supporters waved their republican flags, nobody seemed to care. Why is that? Answering this question might throw a clarifying light on the significance of flag-waving during the World Cup. Since, obviously, there is no straight connection between contemporary football fans waving their nineteenth century republican banners and twentieth century totalitarian minds, answering the question how formerly antithetical symbols suddenly and with enthusiasm are reshaped into unity might be a starting-point for a new round of discussion. Erik Tängerstad Gotland University, Sweden From: "j. van rosse" <j.van.rosse@hccnet.nl> Subject: Re: MfG 9: Zimmermann on Germany after the World Cup Date: Monday, July 31, 2006 It is amazing to watch the ongoing stream of messages about the behaviour of Germans during the recent football championship. I am a Dutchman, but if I were a German it would leave me with the strong feeling that 'we, the Germans' are regarded with suspicion by a large part of the world outside Germany, no matter what we do. 'We' were awfully wrong sixty, seventy years ago and therefore it can be assumed that all the bad characteristics are still there in our genes. The arguments raise by Moshe Zimmerman (MfG 9: Zimmermann on Germany after the World Cup) are a case in point. Many if not all of the manifestations of nationalist feelings that were demonstrated during the championship by Germans could equally, if not more weirdly, be seen amongst Dutch nationals (my countrymen, to be clear). His lines about the integration of immigrants into German society prove nothing about latent racist feelings that may or may not be typically German: everything he observes in Germany in this regard today he can observe daily in politics and in the press in most other (Western) European countries. And comparisons with the 1936 Olympics to me are as meaningless as comparisons with the Dreyfus affair or with the Spanish Inquisition. Being a German apparently in the eyes of some still means that whatever you do, it is wrong or it is suspicous. For how many more generations? Jaap van Rosse University of Leiden
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