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To: H-NET List on German History <H-German@h-net.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: MfG: Boettcher on the World Cup [Kurlander, Ash, Miller-
Kipp, Kay]
[Ed. note: five contributions follow, in the order received. Further
postings are welcome, but -- in the interests of trying to move the
conversation forward -- please be aware that submissions may be
rejected if they merely repeat the same basic points already raised.
If possible, postings should offer original "on-site" observations or
specific responses to the arguments conveyed in earlier messages.]
From: Eric Kurlander <ekurland@stetson.edu>
Subject: Re: MfG: Boettcher on the World Cup in Wolfenbüttel
Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2006
Dear list members,
I do not presume to know what degree of flag-waving represents
healthy patriotism and what constitutes a new German nationalism. But
I suspect our discussion will continue to bump up against the same
subjectivities that Justice Brennan encountered in trying to define
obscenity ("I know it when I see it"). By this admittedly
unscientific standard, I find little objectionable in the current
German flag-waving, face-painting, or anthem-singing. I feel much
more uncomfortable with contemporary expressions of Russian, French,
and American patriotism (xenophobia). After all, the Germans are a
long way off from initiating preemptive wars, condoning torture,
constructing a Gestapo-style surveillance system, or holding
prisoners for years without a trial. This is the H-German list, of
course, but it wouldn't hurt to introduce a comparative element into
the discussion.
Indeed, without making too broad a generalization, it would appear
that our American list members are a little more wary of German
football fever than our German colleagues. This is at the very least
ironic given the widespread rejection of anything smacking of
teleology in contemporary Anglo-American historiography on Imperial/
Weimar Germany and the persistence of a relatively influential if
much less pervasive 'Sonderweg' school in the Federal Republic. It
seems to me inconsistent, in any case, to dispense with the Sonderweg
(as we should) when analyzing the generation that carried out the
Holocaust, but then apply it to German sport fans who, by all
accounts, are considerably more good-natured and cosmopolitan than
their English or American brethren.
Eric Kurlander
Stetson University
Presently: Wroclaw, Poland
From: Mitchell Ash <mitchell.ash@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: MfG: Boettcher on the World Cup in Wolfenbüttel
Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2006
To Christopher Jackson, a brief reply:
Your surmise that the Confederate flag (stars and bars) is for
certain "enthusiasts" a legally acceptable code for racist sentiment
when the Hakenkreuz is verboten appears to me to be correct. I once
knew someone in Vienna who fit that description rather well. He had
the stars and bars decal on his range rover, ran around in deer
hunter's gear, wore a thick beard - and was a leading member of a far
right fringe group called "Rechte Aktion" who was rumored to keep a
small arsenal in his basement. The man is no longer alive; after he
died on the operating table during "routine" surgery, the police
raided his home and found the weapons cache - they had been watching
him and his friends for years.
Having reported this, I would nonetheless suggest that the waving of
German flags is not necessarily part of this syndrome. Rather the
opposite: the Confederate flag-wavers are deliberately deviating from
what they perceive to be a conformist "republican" norm. As for those
worried about the cheers of "Deutschland, Deutschland", I would
suggest (as someone who teaches about the Nazi area frequently) that
we remember the hyperventilating hyperpatriotism (ape-like chants of
USA, USA) in which American sports events bathe themselves so
regularly. Perhaps that would help us beware of and distance
ourselves ironically from overinterpretation and the specialists'
tunnel vision that leads to the same. I use the term "ape-like" quite
consciously: perhaps certain forms of primitivism - along with the
accepted risk of this getting out of control - are integral parts of
"civilization", which, after all, certainly includes popular culture.
In that case, many Germans' behavior at present would appear rather
civilized, especially by comparison with that of the British or
Americans.
Sincerely,
Mitchell Ash
University of Vienna
From: Gisela Miller-Kipp <miller@phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de>
Subject: Re: MfG: Boettcher on the World Cup in Wolfenbüttel
Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2006
Dear list members,
the discussion on flag-waving in Germany so far is a bit funny. Where
is the problem? We have a national anthem; we have a national flag
(with a spotless republican tradition at its back as Henning Jürgens
pointed out); now, don't be surprised: we use both!
Today we use our national flag massively and exuberantly on the
occasion of an international contest. We wave it en masse -- and the
collective mood is friendly, open-minded and of juvenile cheeriness.
The vast majority of the flag-wavers were born after 1970 (two
generations past the "Third Reich", to put it at that). Now hold on:
we even wave the flags of those countries no longer present or in the
contest -- just to show sympathy! To add to the point: we even have
an eye on and guard against the notorious right-wingers and the
silent right who take or see or might be encouraged to try to
undertake "nationalistically" ("fascistically"?) meant flag-waving --
as seen or supposed by the worried writers.
Where, then, is the alarm?; where the need for justification?; or how
and when should we wave our national flag by occasion of an
international festival so that US-citizens and sensitive interpreters
don't take offense or get metaphysical by seeing German troopers
marching in the sky?
Those who diagnose political peril on German flag-waving from the far
West might possibly find instances of socially exclusive and
fundamentally radical politics expressed by flag-raising just under
their nose.
Gisela Miller-Kipp
Heinrich-Heine-Universität Düsseldorf
From: Alex Kay <alexjkay@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: MfG: Boettcher on the World Cup in Wolfenbüttel
Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2006
Dear list subscribers,
Henning Jürgens is right to point out that the black-red-gold
"Bundesflagge" was not popular among the Nazis. In fact, it was
positively unpopular, denigrated as "Schwarz-Rot-Senf" (or even
"Schwarz-Rot-Scheiße") and replaced by the new government in 1933
with the black-white-red flag of the First Reich and the Swastika
flag of the NSDAP. As the flag of the first German democracy, the
Weimar Republic, it wouldn't be going too far to say that the current
German flag has in some respects a very positive tradition.
I think the point here, however, is more the state of German
nationalism (and its expression) than flag-waving as such. German
nationalism remains problematic. This is demonstrated by the recent
increase in far-right extremism. According to the German Federal
Office for the Protection of the Constitution, the number of
incidents linked to far-right extremism rose from 12,000 in 2004 to
15,000 in 2005. The number of violent right-wing extremists is
estimated at more than 10,000. Black visitors to the World Cup were
warned to stay clear of parts of the country -- so-called "no-go"
areas -- where they could be at risk from racist attacks. I
personally have experienced the preponderance of xenophobic placards
from certain political parties in the Spreewald just outside Berlin.
As a foreigner in Germany -- abeit a white one -- this scenario makes
me feel rather uncomfortable. Unfortunately, it's difficult at the
moment to distinguish between the football fans who simply want to
see their team do well and the extremists who revel in the triumph of
all things Teutonic. Is there perhaps the danger that this flag-
waving hype could encourage the extremists?
Alex J. Kay
Stiftung Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas
From: Joachim Neander <jneander@web.de>
Subject: Re: MfG: Boettcher on the World Cup in Wolfenbüttel
Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2006
Since 1999 I have lived in Poland among Poles who have long since
accepted me as one of "us." When, at the end of May 2006, Benedict
XVI came to Cracow, half a million catholics greeted the - German -
Pope, waving white-red - Polish - flags. It was a wonderful and
peaceful event, not in the least "nationalistic." Poles simply are
very proud of their national colors and of being Poles. They
understand people from other nations who also love their country and
are proud of being its citizens. Maybe some politicians and
columnists think different with regard to Germany and Russia,
Poland's big neighbors. But the majority of the population thinks
like my Polish friends, as opinion polls have shown. My friends are
not afraid of peaceful German soccer fans waving the black-red-golden
flag. They are more afraid of a tendency in Germany to discriminate
against every possible utterance of patriotism for reasons of
"political correctness." They know, from their own history, that
suppressing national and patriotic feelings may work for quite a long
time, but one day they will erupt. And they fear, again looking into
history, the moment when this will happen in Germany.
Joachim Neander, Kraków
 Humanities & Social Sciences Online 
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