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From: Jon Alfred <email@example.com> Subject: Re: REPLY: Vikings, samurai and energy transfer Date: March 30, 2010 9:33:48 AM EDT To: H-NET Military History Discussion List <H-WAR@H-NET.MSU.EDU> The point of the show is both bragging right and scientific inquiry. Alot of the show is built on a grade school premise, and I know this because my two grade school sons often come up with these same senarios (knight vs. pirate, Mafia vs yakuza), to see how two warrior from different eras and different locals would fight. The team does a brief historical overview of each warriors culture, fighting style, etc. and then procedes to introduces two modern examples of the warrior. These warriors then use period pieces to beat on head shaped pieces of balistics gels, pig carcasses or pressure plates to generate scientific "data". If I recall correctly from the Viking vs Samuari episode there were spears, bows and throwing axes used as well as swords used. It was allowed demonstrated that a slashing sword could penetrate chainmail. This data is then feed into a computer and a score is generated. After the score is generated there create a video were one side or the other fights (very dramatic) showing all the skills each warrior has. The fights are mono-a-mono thus negating much of the strengths of variopus warrior societies. I laughed especially hard when it was Green Berets vs Spetnaz and it was one vs one and most of the show it was three Russians glaring at three Americans. The point of the show is mostly fun and does provided some interesting counter-factual scenarios, but all in all its just a show for boys to see who's hero is tougher. Dr. Kosuta even if you don't have a TV alot of the episodes or parts at found on Youtube. On a side note how the pirate lost to the armored knight I'll have no idea, but win the knight did. Jon W AlfredUSU MA History Gradaute student firstname.lastname@example.org email@example.com ________________________________ Original Message: From: Matthew Kosuta <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: REPLY: Vikings, samurai and energy transfer Date: March 28, 2010 12:31:37 AM EDT To: H-NET Military History Discussion List <H-WAR@H-NET.MSU.EDU> Dear Colleagues, My post is hampered by the fact that I do not have a TV to watch the show “Deadliest Warriors”, still I would like to comment. The technical study of weapons and armor seems good, but what does pitting two warriors against each other really do except provide entertainment and bragging rights? I am not sure what is being tested in the show technological/equipment superiority or individual fighting skill? I thought it would be both, but as I understand the article from the link provided, equipment is the determining factor; swords can’t cut chain mail so wearer of chainmail (Viking) wins. If this is the case then we can assume that any wielder of an edged weapon loses to the Viking or for that matter loses to anyone in mail or plate armor in a one on one fight. So there is a host of warriors from history who wore little or no armor who would automatically lose to the armored warrior. But how is the personal fighting skill evaluated? I guess the show takes for granted each warrior is skilled in his art but how is that reflected? Do the warriors actually fight to the death, of course not. I assume it must be a computer simulation. I am thinking of Southeast Asia warriors who fought with little or no armor and the best warriors often used two swords (giving up a shield). It seems there is no contest in pitting such a warrior against a Viking, which may very well be the case. But if the two warriors are allowed to do more than just stand and hack at each other wouldn’t the SEA warrior have some chance? Isn’t chainmail heavy and couldn’t the unarmored warrior run around or away from the Viking attempting to tire him all the while trying to strike at hands, legs, feet and face? Is this too unmanly for the show? This seems even more pertinent if we consider why the SEA warrior isn’t wearing armor. Let’s have the face off with a temperature of 33-35c under a tropical sun and 70%+ humidity (of course a little rain shower would be a great touch). It would seem to me chainmail is quickly losing its positives. The show just seems to place the warriors in a computer boxing ring and have them fight it out the winner being considered the “best”, except that equipment seem to be the determining factor. Different cultures have both different reasons for fighting and different ways to fight. So it is problematic at best to simply pluck warriors out of their culture and evaluate their fighting skill and military technology in a vacuum or even cross-culturally. This is why so much animosity between cultures can be generated in war as neither side understands or accepts the other side’s fighting methods and ethics. See the “Pacific and Racism” thread for one example how this plays out, though only with one side represented. On “Deadliest Warriors” will we see a knight mounted on warhorse against an Indian or SEA noble mounted on a war-elephant? What would the result mean? And if the Viking is so manly and the samurai so “soft” why doesn’t the Viking take of that chainmail, which if I read the article correctly is the reason why the Viking wins, his skill and courage are quite secondary. History provides us with plenty of examples of armies of different cultures meeting in battle and the result thereof, but this one on one computer dueling appears an anachronistic and contrived game whoever may win. Matthew Kosuta PhD College of Religious Studies Mahidol University Thailand ________________________________ Original Message 1st Reply From: Rota, Giorgio <Giorgio.Rota@oeaw.ac.at> Subject: RE: COMMENT: Vikings, samurai and energy transfer Date: March 24, 2010 6:28:24 AM EDT To: H-NET Military History Discussion List <H-WAR@H-NET.MSU.EDU> Personally, I find the idea of measuring the effectiveness of ancient weapons a good idea. But the title is terrible, they should really change it. Best, Giorgio Rota 2nd Reply From: bob couttie <email@example.com> Subject: Re: COMMENT: Vikings, samurai and energy transfer Date: March 24, 2010 4:44:18 AM EDT To: H-NET Military History Discussion List <H-WAR@H-NET.MSU.EDU> Reading the link the references to the morning star reminded me of the time I experimented with the yo-yo - at one time I was a sort of 'official historian' on the yo-yo. While a little outside the parameters of this group, I'd come across claims of 1 or 2 kilo yo-yos made of ironwood being used as weapons - mainly for hunting. In the Philippines, where they are reputed to have come from, I had a half kilo yo-yo made up. Ten minutes, possible less, demonstrated that any idea of using a yo-yo as weapon, for any purpose. Bob Couttie Balangiga Research Group 3rd Reply From: Palle Rasmussen <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: COMMENT: Vikings, samurai and energy transfer Date: March 23, 2010 6:06:48 PM EDT To: H-NET Military History Discussion List <H-WAR@h-net.msu.edu> Being a Viking fighting re-enactor I would say "Of course the hard and brutal Viking took the well-groomed and soft Samurai, good to see the Katana-myth ruptured". Apart from that... I am not much of a fan of that show. But if anyone wish to discuss fighting with the weapons I know anything about (Iron Age, Viking, High Middle Age), I will gladly do so with the meagre knowledge I do have. Best wishes, Rasmussen, Palle, Ma Hist, ind scolar and Viking fighting re-enactor for 17 years. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Hendrix [mailto:hendsn1@GMAIL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 10:22 PM To: H-WAR@H-NET.MSU.EDU Subject: COMMENT: Vikings, samurai and energy transfer From: Jonathan D. Beard <email@example.com> Subject: Vikings, samurai and energy transfer Date: March 23, 2010 8:23:26 AM EDT To: H-NET Military History Discussion List <H-WAR@H-NET.MSU.EDU> Those on the list interested in ancient warfare and weapons may be familiar with "Deadliest Warrior," a show I have not seen. I find it reassuring that this article explains that the show is not merely entertainment for big boys, but instead is based upon sound scientific research. http://memagazine.asme.org/Articles/2010/march/Viking_vs_Samurai.cfm -- Jonathan Beard firstname.lastname@example.org ----- For subscription help, go to: http://www.h-net.org/lists/help/ To change your subscription settings, go to http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=h-war -----