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1. Jeffrey Grey <J.Grey@ADFA.EDU.AU> 2. email@example.com 3. daniel spector <firstname.lastname@example.org> -----Message from: Jeffrey Grey <J.Grey@ADFA.EDU.AU>----- Geoff Megargee wrote: 'I believe that most of us, when confronted with so many citations and elegantly written text, tend to believe that the author has done her or his homework and is in fact worth reading. Who among us has re-done an author's primary research in order to test its validity, even in order to write a book review?' Geoff is dead right on this one. I have no wish to become embroiled in a discussion of Irving, about whose work I have no particular qualification to comment, though instinctively I agree with Megargee on its value (and would add, as a professor of history in Australian university, that I am unaware of any blanket ban in this country on citing his work - which merely means that I don't know!). But there are plenty of examples of books that appeared persuasive precisely because of their air of assumed authority and that were subsequently exposed as less than the sum of their parts. Readers on this site will be familiar with the case of Michael Bellesiles' book, 'The Origins of a National Gun Culture' and of the forensic dissection of it in various fora by acknowledged authorities in various fields required to expose its numerous short comings. I had a small role in a similar exercise concerning Denis Winter's book, Haig's Command, which had attracted glowing reviews from several eminent authorities in the UK who were, alas, in no position to test his assertions through the sources he claimed to have used. Geoff is right; few of us have the time - or the opportunity - to test the claims of books and authors even when we suspect that there is something wrong. On that score, as the article in the Telegraph suggests (and not least because Irving has it linked to his own website), Keegan's 'defence' suggests very strongly that he just doesn't get it. Jeffrey Grey H&SS/ADFA Jeffrey Grey <J.Grey@ADFA.EDU.AU> -----Message from: email@example.com----- I am grateful for Dr. Megargee's thoughtful response to my posting on the David Irving thread. I am doubly grateful given that he waded through what the list-serv software had turned into one long run-on paragraph. However, I must provide one small correction. To wit: I am, alas, not Dr. Stout, merely Mr. Stout. (Frankly, I prefer Mark, but I'm flexible on this.) I teach at Johns Hopkins and I have recently finished my PhD dissertation, but I have not yet defended it, nor formally received the degree. Give me a few months, and the title "Dr." will, inshallah, apply to me. --Mark Stout Johns Hopkins Univ. firstname.lastname@example.org -----Message from: daniel spector <email@example.com>----- I put Holocaust Deniers in the same category of flat earth zealots,Creationists who insist the earth is only 6-7000 years old and formed ex nihilo in six days, and those who believe that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion outline a secret Jewish path to world domination; to which I might add purveyors of the plots of the Illuminati of the Freemasons to manipulate all societies. None of these warrant serious acadamic attention except in socio-psychological analyses of these movements and their impact. I cannot, however, support banning their works from librairies or automatically docking points from student grades for citing the works. Uncritical use of such sources should result in appropriate grades, but critical use should be welcome in academia. In David Irving's case, his work spans decades, and some it is recognized as good scholarship. As with all sources, studnets need to develop a critical approach in evaluating the usefulness of Irving's works. Best Dan Spector daniel spector <firstname.lastname@example.org> ----- For subscription help, go to: http://www.h-net.org/lists/help/ To change your subscription settings, go to http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=h-war -----