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From: (digest) 1 Edwin Moise 2 Matthias Hoffmann Sent: November 13, 2013 Subject: Re: QUERY: International Agreements Not To Spy I have belatedly realized that there is a logical flaw in the argument that the "Five Eyes" countries are culturally so similar, and closely enough allied with one another in world affairs, that they have no motive to spy on one another. The United States spies on the United States. This mostly has taken the form of American agencies such as the FBI and NSA spying on American citizens, but there has been at least one case of one branch of the US government spying on another (Charles Radford, who while working in the White House during the Nixon administration served as a spy for the Joint Chiefs of Staff). I do not believe that Australia or New Zealand is more similar to the United States, or more closely allied to the United States, than the United States is to itself. The most interesting case of which I have heard, in which one government restrained itself from spying on another, was the policy that the United States was not supposed to spy on the Republic of Vietnam, during the Vietnam War. This policy was not completely effective, but it did hold American gathering of intelligence on its ally down to a much lower level than might otherwise have been the case. I believe this policy was motivated not by any feeling that the United States could trust the Republic of Vietnam well enough not to need to spy. On the contrary, I think there was a fear that extensive American spying would add further strain to a relationship already suffering from serious weaknesses. Edwin Moise Clemson University -- 2. Matthias Hoffmann Mark, as a German national I think the impression here in Germany basically is that the political and cultural commonalities between the USA and the FRG are indeed substantial enough to make spying unnecessary. That's why the revelation of the amount of spying done is seen as a breach of trust. German governments since 1948 very much followed the US lead in all security matters - at times against wishes of the electorate. The perception here is that all the rhetoric of partnership and of 'Wertegemeinschaft' has been revealed as just window dressing from your side of the Atlantic. That it looks like the NSA is doing industrial espionage on behalf of US firms after getting a certain amount of leeway in Germany by the German government in order to protect American security interests is adding damages to insult. regards Matthias Hoffmann --
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